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at first i loved this site. every poem i clicked on was worthy of a decent critique. also it is much easier to pick apart a piece that had at least some inteligence applied to its creation. however lately i have been reading many pieces of exactly the same standard as ap. i am not saying less experienced (ie not so good- although of course a matter of opinion) poets shouldn’t be allowed on the sight. although possibly ap would be more suitable for them. but you can tell when reading that a poet is not serious about their writing and is unlikely to appreciate comments, or be able to offer helpful comments themselves. i recently saw a badly misspelt comment something along the lines of ‘i dont know what u cud do to improve this it is rely good’... except i think the grammer was good. just to get points?? maybe. i feel we could do without these people. ap is all inclusive and very suitable for those less dedicated to their words. but do we need them here? if they post only bad poetry and unhelpful critiques? ie if they do not add positivly to the site in any way? i feel that with them onboard this site will slowly metamorphose into just another ap. which is a waste of effort and brilliant ideas all round.
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Well, currently I think there is an unwritten expectation (rule is too strong a word) that a comment be more than a sentence long (Unless it’s very specific grammer or form-wise) and that one should respect the standard written English language. The people who put up poems that are AP level poems are probably 75% not ready for serious critiquing and not expecting it. However I would think that the minority of those who are and do, they deserve to get a comment. It is, of course, often frustrating.
Also, if we were to start with rules ( to avoid the waste of effort), don’t you think we should begin by enforcing the use of proper grammar? For example using capitalized “i”’s and avoiding missusing words like “sight” for “site”...?
Each person has his and her own strengths and weaknesses and to turn this site into a elitist-ruled exclusive club is not somehting I would want. As I understand it, it’s a place to learn. And those with the worst poetry are most in need of this.
Finally, you can delete those comments that you believe are there only to get points.
Just my thoughts on the matter,
~Nocturne -
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Ya know something? Excellent reply here Nocturne. Well said. I would say my ratio of helpful reviews is about 8:2. I’m quite satisfied and happy that I’ve already updated two poems, and am working on a rehaul of my third.
We aren’t the social police. If I get a crappy review, I just tend to say ‘Hey thanks’ and walk away. They don’t tend to come back.
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Yes, my ratio is more like 6:1 but if one is part of this site, then they should accept it as it is and not moan about it. I know other poetry sites that have “zero tolerence” for the ap type “poetry” their comments tend to be along the lines of “learn the basics of poetic sense/grammar before posting here…”
I would not want SP to be like that. Here one can get critique without getting their heads blown off…
have to run!
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It's too late.
I could not reply directly, so I have to piggy-back with yours, Nocturne. I agree the elitist clubs are about as unfriendly as can be, and as smug in their ignorance. That is not what we needed. Reality checks, we do.Bob the elder had legitimate concerns which I support,
( and a problem with cite/site/sight and ‘grammer’
which can be helped with an AP course.) Those things are on a different level—I cannot run a marathon either, or play a musical instrument. These concerns were not hampered by that.Unless we split this place in two—which the Guild does to some extent—we are stuck with all who pay the price to be here. My suggestion: Like an entry exam, to take part on a higher level, submit at least three of: a formal sonnet, a villanelle, a classic haiku, a ballad, and a free form poem. Original work only. Then close the door that admits only those who can.
It would be nice if the “AP quality” writers were to accept help, indeed to seek it. I have great sympathy for those who struggle. Shouldn’t we all help where we can?
Terry
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I don’t think that regulation is feasible. I mean the people who you’re talking about really do piss me off. But I mean how could we regulate it? If there was some fair way of doing it I’d be all for it, but , almost by definition, there can’t be a fair way of officially regulating the site.
I think that the whole atmosphere of the site should just be as unreceptive as possible to these people…
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“be as unreceptive as possible to these people…”
Well, yes. No comment, for instance, but like in AP, they stroke each other—or perhaps I just think they do.
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There still is room however, for a bit of a hand in the case of those who really DO want to improve. I know. It takes time to teach, and I had my ears pinned back for being tired of the attempt when it is not welcome.
Those who are actively learning are a joy. -
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Surely you must mean me when you say ‘actively learning’ devil< my devil doesn’t work
Okay now I’m gonna test… change the station!
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Never you, AW!
This was supposed to be a reply.I was thinking of several younger writers (okay, teens, students, new grads) I have mentored here. People who have never written form, or tried meter, but who really are attempting to learn the craft. I don’t need to teach anyone how to write free verse; I learn from them!!
It comes with being a professional; teaching was my life—there wasn’t time for much else with big classes, and while on rotary teaching this stuff, seeing close to 150 kids a day—and I still love it. Strange.
No, Adrienne, I did not mean you.Terry
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I think that the whole atmosphere of the site should just be as unreceptive as possible to these people…
Okay, I just have to giggle at that. You can be amusing and in this instance, fairly accurate. I tend to give a person one chance to improve their review and if they still don’t understand what this site’s goal is then it’s ‘Thank you, drive thru.’
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sorry testing for error message pls ignore me
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nevermind.
I had a comment here about you picking on others because of their spelling when you yourself have multiple misspellings in your own topic/comment above—but then I thought: what’s the point?
so, nevermind.
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misspellings
I noticed them too, and thought they could have been caught by proofreading, until I realized where they had come from. Further, Grammar was correctly spelt later on in the message… along with the rest of the correct spelling.
I commend your restraint!
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I can understand wanting detailed and well thought out critiques and can even see promoting that as an expectation (not rule) of this site.
But concerning the quality of poetry: How would you go about deciding which poetry is up to the standard of being posted here and which is not? Forgive me, but this site is supposed to be about learning. Should it be reserved for those who are educated by….well…by whose standards? Your’s? Mine? Kevin’s? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of the site?
Nocturne gently pointed out that there were many flaws in the original post here and if we were held to your ‘regulation’ where would that leave the author?I’m not so hard to please as all that.
I think if one is willing to accept honest critiques and help in editing and is also willing to try to put forth the same effort in helping others than that is enough of a requirement or regulation. We’re all here to learn. -
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Well said!! Agree completely!
If we accepted only those who already know,
where would new learning go?
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The problem is, we're getting most members from allpoetry right now
And so people who give it a try may be at that level. I’ve started advertising to those who have left allpoetry (for reasons among them, that the critiques aren’t professional enough), as well as in new areas.I think the site ‘focus’ on critical comments helps to seperate some of the people who are ready from those who are not, but it’s a process.
Also, giving away silver memberships to the first few thousand visitors resulted in them wanting to post all their poetry here too, just in case anyone comments on it. They’ll fade away over time too.
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“The problem is, we’re getting most members from allpoetry right now.”
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Quite true. I recognize some old friends from AP, but they tend to be the more serious writers here. It is very interesting to read all the messages, and to note how many have gone silent. Perhaps they have no wish to invite more personal attacks.
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We must not assume that all from AP are immature as writers, regardless of age. We have seen excellence from young writers too. Long-suffering they are, wondering some days, in the midst of all the abusive fun-and-games, why they bother. Many already are not involved in the face of attack for writing openly in support of higher standards.
Judging by that, given time, I’d say the better writers will leave SP to the scoffers.
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Adding your reply:
Bob the Elder
Sep 6 2:28 PM 2005
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